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There's a discussion simmering away about why Gunn (well, not just Gunn but I only know the Buffy/Angelverse and he has come up in the discussion a lot so I'll stick with him) doesn't get written more, with the answer, according to ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
jennyo et al, being that white writers are scared to get black people 'wrong' (there being, it seems only one way to write them) so we shy away from writing him.
Apparently this is an 'everyone knows that' situation.
To quote Lazarus Long,
If 'everybody knows' such-and-such, then it ain't so, by at least ten thousand to one.
There's a more reasoned (translates as open to all as well, which Jennyo's discussions aren't) look at it here inkattahj's LJ.
Gunn gets written. Gunn gets the love. (Usually Wesley's on my f-list ;-)).
If he doesn't get written as much as Angel, Wes and Spike, well, it's worth considering that we've known them longer and in the case of Angel and Spike there's a huge backstory available as they're hundreds of years old. And A/W/S can all be written about in the Buffyverse which doubles the size of the playing field for them.
Gosh, sorry. That came perilously close to a factual reasonable explanantion, or part of one at least, didn't it?
But there _is_ a lot of Gunn fic out there, so maybe there's no explanation needed. Written some myself. And he's way higher on the 'have been written' list I'd say than Lorne, Fred, Anya, Cordelia, Harmony.
Forget the nonsense about fic writers shying away from writing outside their experiences (fear of offending English people doesn't seem to stop Americans writing Giles and Wes when they've never set foot in the UK and maybe never met a real, live Englishman; they go off the characters they see on screen. You can do that with Gunn too. *So* not a big deal. Gunn who is, after all, written by white writers afaik.)
Gunn doesn't need your sympathy. He's cool, tragic, heroic, flawed and taller than Angel. He doesn't need guilt-fics written by people who've been conned into thinking that if they don't write Gunn they're racists or overly-sensitive liberals with issues or whatever.
What I find even weirder, is this spin-off discussion inmimesere's LJ here where there is much ranting from people (Mimesere) who can't understand why people fic Goth boy Michael but won't write Gunn (she's quite right too; it's disgusting. Stop it immediately, all you hordes of, lots of, several possibly two people who write him! Sheesh! The nerve!)
It seems from my perspective that there are perceived as cool minor characters to write: Devon being one, and that, I have to say, baffles me to be honest, although :;cough:: yes, I've written him. But then I've written most people ::grin:: My conscience is clear. Apart from Lindsey. And Lorne. God, do I ever lie awake nights feeling bad that I've never written Lindsey and Lorne.... ::broods:: (As Ethan would say, 'Not really!') And I'd never rant about people writing Devon. Or Michael. Or anyone. Go for it :;shrug;: I don't have to read it if I don't want to, so why should I care?
Where was I? I think my brain froze whenglossing, who does write Michael, (we don't, it seems, because when we're not shunning Gunn for being black and therefore Too Hard to Write (still can't fathom that at all) we're shunning poor, three lines of dialogue Michael for being gay. Not because nip to the loo and you'd miss his entire time on the show, no, not that, but because he comes over as gay, but not the right sort of gay) complained. Gloss' actual words are:
"Actually, I'd argue that Michael doesn't get love like, say, fucking *Graham* does, precisely because he is "really gay" -- or effeminate, which reads the same to most people.
What, like Andrew, you mean? Yeah, no one writes Andrew, what with the squicky funnel-cake baking and everything. He's totally over-looked.
And 'fucking *Graham*'? Am I sensing some hostility here? Graham is taking fic time away from Michael or something? Oh! Graham's not cool like Devon! Got it. Riiiight. Gosh this is so tricky! It's a minefield. Is there a list of minor characters/pairings it's OK to write and those that'll get you shunned by all right-minded people ::cough:: Giles/Spike::cough::? Point me at it.
And I'll point you at the third fic I ever wrote an 11 chapter epic about Dalton, tragic Dalton, kinda fugly with glasses Dalton, bound to be on the not cool list, and give you a two-fingered salute from my culture.
And then Mimesere, hurriedly backtracking from her Goth-boy fic hate when she realises she's just pissed off a friend, says,
Oh, I agree with you. But the fact that he gets fic *at all* while Gunn is not interesting enough to write is something that makes me nuts.
'Gunn is not interesting enough to write.'
So we don't write him because he's black and he's boring. ::nods:; Right. Got it. And you know this how? And your proof is where? And you think you can presume to tell me why a character works for me fic-wise or doesn't because -?
God, sometimes the stupid doesn't just burn; it annihilates my brain cells reading it.
No one should ever have to defend their choice of character to write, or their pairing. No one should have to feel guilty that they don't write a character, no matter what the reason, no matter how 'cool' that character is or isn't.
Maybe you do feel uncomfortable writing the kids,like Dawn or Connor, because you're old, or Giles because he reminds you of your dad, the American/English because you're English/American, the white characters/black characters because you're black/white, slash, male and female, because you're straight, smut because you're a virgin, angst because you've actually had quite a happy life... maybe you do.
Or maybe you've got a limited time to spend writing and focus on pairings/genres that hit you so hard it hurts you love them that much. Maybe, as you get more confident, you'll branch out, do a bit of research where it's needed, experiment.
Maybe. Your choice.
Yours.
ETA Michael is in 'Gingerbread'. One of Amy's witch friends. Scroll down for a bit from the transcript I got here:
http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/buffy_tran_45.shtml
jennyo et al, being that white writers are scared to get black people 'wrong' (there being, it seems only one way to write them) so we shy away from writing him.Apparently this is an 'everyone knows that' situation.
To quote Lazarus Long,
If 'everybody knows' such-and-such, then it ain't so, by at least ten thousand to one.
There's a more reasoned (translates as open to all as well, which Jennyo's discussions aren't) look at it here in
kattahj's LJ.Gunn gets written. Gunn gets the love. (Usually Wesley's on my f-list ;-)).
If he doesn't get written as much as Angel, Wes and Spike, well, it's worth considering that we've known them longer and in the case of Angel and Spike there's a huge backstory available as they're hundreds of years old. And A/W/S can all be written about in the Buffyverse which doubles the size of the playing field for them.
Gosh, sorry. That came perilously close to a factual reasonable explanantion, or part of one at least, didn't it?
But there _is_ a lot of Gunn fic out there, so maybe there's no explanation needed. Written some myself. And he's way higher on the 'have been written' list I'd say than Lorne, Fred, Anya, Cordelia, Harmony.
Forget the nonsense about fic writers shying away from writing outside their experiences (fear of offending English people doesn't seem to stop Americans writing Giles and Wes when they've never set foot in the UK and maybe never met a real, live Englishman; they go off the characters they see on screen. You can do that with Gunn too. *So* not a big deal. Gunn who is, after all, written by white writers afaik.)
Gunn doesn't need your sympathy. He's cool, tragic, heroic, flawed and taller than Angel. He doesn't need guilt-fics written by people who've been conned into thinking that if they don't write Gunn they're racists or overly-sensitive liberals with issues or whatever.
What I find even weirder, is this spin-off discussion in
mimesere's LJ here where there is much ranting from people (Mimesere) who can't understand why people fic Goth boy Michael but won't write Gunn (she's quite right too; it's disgusting. Stop it immediately, all you It seems from my perspective that there are perceived as cool minor characters to write: Devon being one, and that, I have to say, baffles me to be honest, although :;cough:: yes, I've written him. But then I've written most people ::grin:: My conscience is clear. Apart from Lindsey. And Lorne. God, do I ever lie awake nights feeling bad that I've never written Lindsey and Lorne.... ::broods:: (As Ethan would say, 'Not really!') And I'd never rant about people writing Devon. Or Michael. Or anyone. Go for it :;shrug;: I don't have to read it if I don't want to, so why should I care?
Where was I? I think my brain froze when
glossing, who does write Michael, (we don't, it seems, because when we're not shunning Gunn for being black and therefore Too Hard to Write (still can't fathom that at all) we're shunning poor, three lines of dialogue Michael for being gay. Not because nip to the loo and you'd miss his entire time on the show, no, not that, but because he comes over as gay, but not the right sort of gay) complained. Gloss' actual words are:"Actually, I'd argue that Michael doesn't get love like, say, fucking *Graham* does, precisely because he is "really gay" -- or effeminate, which reads the same to most people.
What, like Andrew, you mean? Yeah, no one writes Andrew, what with the squicky funnel-cake baking and everything. He's totally over-looked.
And 'fucking *Graham*'? Am I sensing some hostility here? Graham is taking fic time away from Michael or something? Oh! Graham's not cool like Devon! Got it. Riiiight. Gosh this is so tricky! It's a minefield. Is there a list of minor characters/pairings it's OK to write and those that'll get you shunned by all right-minded people ::cough:: Giles/Spike::cough::? Point me at it.
And I'll point you at the third fic I ever wrote an 11 chapter epic about Dalton, tragic Dalton, kinda fugly with glasses Dalton, bound to be on the not cool list, and give you a two-fingered salute from my culture.
And then Mimesere, hurriedly backtracking from her Goth-boy fic hate when she realises she's just pissed off a friend, says,
Oh, I agree with you. But the fact that he gets fic *at all* while Gunn is not interesting enough to write is something that makes me nuts.
'Gunn is not interesting enough to write.'
So we don't write him because he's black and he's boring. ::nods:; Right. Got it. And you know this how? And your proof is where? And you think you can presume to tell me why a character works for me fic-wise or doesn't because -?
God, sometimes the stupid doesn't just burn; it annihilates my brain cells reading it.
No one should ever have to defend their choice of character to write, or their pairing. No one should have to feel guilty that they don't write a character, no matter what the reason, no matter how 'cool' that character is or isn't.
Maybe you do feel uncomfortable writing the kids,like Dawn or Connor, because you're old, or Giles because he reminds you of your dad, the American/English because you're English/American, the white characters/black characters because you're black/white, slash, male and female, because you're straight, smut because you're a virgin, angst because you've actually had quite a happy life... maybe you do.
Or maybe you've got a limited time to spend writing and focus on pairings/genres that hit you so hard it hurts you love them that much. Maybe, as you get more confident, you'll branch out, do a bit of research where it's needed, experiment.
Maybe. Your choice.
Yours.
ETA Michael is in 'Gingerbread'. One of Amy's witch friends. Scroll down for a bit from the transcript I got here:
http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/buffy_tran_45.shtml